Return to Base: Steven Graham on Sheepdog Film & Veteran Stories

And some of our enablers and just have some really good conversation. I'm your host, Cliff VanRickley. Today's guest is Steven Graham. He's the writer, director, producer, and star of the new book, The Veteran Life Podcast, which is coming out this fall, and we're going to talk a little bit more about that in just a few minutes, but first, let's give a shout out to Steven Graham, who is the writer, director, producer, and star of the book, The Veteran Life Podcast, which is coming out this fall, and we're going to talk a little bit more about that in just a few minutes, but first, let's give a shout out to Steven Graham, who is the writer, director, producer, and star of the new film, Sheepdog, which I watched just last night, and it's available now on all streaming platforms, including Amazon Prime, Apple TV, Spectrum, Comcast, YouTube movies, and more. The film dives into the invisible battles many veterans face after service, identity, purpose, trauma, and the search for connection and the inspiring path to positive, positive, traumatic growth and healing. Steven, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing? Very good, Cliff. How are you? Yeah, yeah. Um, so I was talking to my wife last night and was just like, I need to watch this movie, you know, for sure. Uh, I've heard of it and it's kind of one of those things where it's like in the ether, you kind of hear people talking about it along the way. Um, and then when, uh, I was connected to you through this, you know, just put it on my list to watch and, you know, nothing like, like doing it right before the podcast, right? So it's a great, great movie, very well done, super emotional, obviously, and definitely brings true and brings back some, some good and bad memories. So let's get right into and talk about sheep duck. So, you know, this isn't a war movie. It's kind of about what happens after the fact that it explores emotional, psychological. There's a relationships involved and friendships and some of the really hard things that go along with it. So, you know, not being a veteran yourself, what inspired you to write this story? Like, how did you come up with the idea of it? And let's just take it from there. Sure. So in 2011, I should go back to childhood. So I am the descendant, I'm the grandson of a POW. My grandfather was a Polish farmer who was captured by the Nazis, enslaved on his own land at one period, tortured for years and, uh, was liberated by the American allied troops. So I grew up with his stories that he never talked about with anybody as a little kid and, and, and it's interesting because they're the correlation to the seminal moment. My adult life is uncanny. So my mom used to say, he shouldn't be telling you those things. I'm like eight years old, nine years old. And cause she said that she knew he never talked about it with anybody. So 2011, this, I have this chance encounter with a tow truck driver. My, my car broke down three hours North of my home at the time in Los Angeles. I was shooting a movie as an actor up in Vancouver, Canada. I'm 21 hours into the drive back from Vancouver to Los Angeles, down the coast, the PCH car breaks down, call AAA. They send the local guy. He's like saddle up partner. We got a three hour ride into town. And it was just during that drive, you know, we sat in silence for a while. And then he just began to open up about his life, you know, all the issues he was having in his marriage. The challenges of being a father of three, his financial hardship. And then he began to open up about all the various medications, copious medications that he was on that were tethered to his traumatic brain injury and his post-traumatic stress from multiple deployments during his military service. And I don't think I said like three words during this drive and just listened. And he kept saying, I can't believe I'm telling you this. I've never told anybody this. I've never told my wife. I've never even spoken to a therapist. So I get back to LA and it was a very sort of teachable moment of, um, the power of just listening without prejudice to a complete stranger. And, um, I hugged him. I thanked him for, for getting me home safe. And it was just a look in his eyes that I think it was both cathartic, but that he intended to never see me again, because it was just easier to share this kind of stuff with a stranger. So that was the turning point where I felt not only a sense of curiosity cliff, but a sense of responsibility to go out as a storyteller, potentially, and uncover that truth. Were there more men and women like this tow truck driver who were potentially suffering in silence? And why? For somebody who'd served their country honorably, working their butt off to provide for their family. Why are they feeling disconnected from their family, their community battle buddies? And that summer of 2011, I went on my first nationwide road trip with my co-star in the film who plays my best friend, Matt Dallas. And from the very first veteran we sat down with in McAllen, Texas cliff, it became so personal and that was the beginning of, of sheepdog. Wow. Great. Oh, that's very interesting story. It seems that, um, quite often we just happen upon people that need to be in our lives, right? Yeah. Have you, um, by chance found that person kept in touch with them or does he know he inspired this? I, I have his contact info. I've never spoken since that incident. And I, I think I, for the most part, and maybe I will, but I, I feel like for the most part, I was trying to be respectful. I don't know that he was looking for a friend, right. And I was trying to like, it would be very civilian, like to be like, I mean, to be honest, like I said to him, thank you, brother, for getting me home. If you ever want to go for a beer. And the look in his eyes was like, I'm never going to see you again. Hopefully. Right. Yeah. And listen, like, like, and I've, and I've, I've respected that. And I, and I feel like, look, I've had the great fortune of some of the people I met with in that very first road trip to become family to me, I mean, one of the gold star mothers I met with in the first month spoke at my wedding. I signed the marriage license for a veteran combat vet that I lived with. And he loosely inspired some of my character. I lived with him in Pittsburgh and I've had the great fortune to be taken in as like a, as a guest, as an honored guest at this table. And, um, and so it's interesting because how that relates to the film was, was I had my first draft of it, 2012, as it took years to try to get this made, I became older and so did the characters in the story, but so did more importantly, the veterans and the mental health workers and all the folks that I had originally met with, right? So I had the benefit of seeing their journeys, right? The triumphs, the challenges. And that was why in our movie, it's the first movie that picks up with our veteran 10 years after their last deployment, because I felt there's so much life that's lived in those 10 years, rather than just showing them transition out, out of boot, out of basic. And then here you go in their first year of being a civilian again. Yeah. And, um, I saw in the opening, opening sequence it, there's a quote, um, from On Combat, is that what inspired the title of the movie Sheepdog and what inspired you to read On Combat of all things? If you have. I have, I also read On Killing and well, first off, we'll talk about the retired Lieutenant Colonel David Grossman, who wrote both of those books, but On Combat is where there is the passage that David Grossman writes about from a Vietnam veteran. And, and as you know, that's the, the sheepdog metaphor in certainly relating to violence is the sheepdog protecting the flock, being the sheep and confronting the wolf, bringing the predator. And I felt like Calvin and Daryl, our characters in the film, including even Whitney, who plays a Vietnam veteran, they did that in their military service. So I wanted to take that metaphor and see how that applies to your civilian life. The flock being your family and the wolf is the wolf at your door. And, um, and I have to say, uh, we were very fortunate to have a full endorsement, a public endorsement by David Grossman. Uh, and it meant a lot to me because as a civilian, having someone of his, of his ilk and his experience in both of those books, I think you, you would agree are, are just must reads their masterpieces. I mean, they're just, just incredible pieces of literature. And he said, listen, like as a civilian, you know, you don't have to give your life to walk the sheepdog's path. You can be in of service to your community. And, and he said, and that's what you've done with this film, my fellow sheepdog. And that meant the world to me because the biggest challenge cliff and all of this wasn't necessarily all the things you would imagine, raising the money independently to make the film, all the false starts on it, the heartbreak, you know, sure, but the hardest part was getting it right for the folks that were depicting on screen, that was the, that was the most important thing. And, and, and the response that we've received thus far has been incredibly humbling and profound. Yeah. And actually, you know, I want to kind of thank you for making such a well put together movie. After retiring from the army, the toughest moments weren't overseas. They were at the kitchen table talking bills and budgets. Navy Federal Credit Union is helping members dominate debt with the platinum card, transfer your balance within your first 60 days and get a 0% intro APR for 12 months. Our members could save thousands over the promo period. Learn more at Navy federal.org slash platinum Navy Federal Credit Union. Our members are the mission. Navy Federal is federally insured by NCUA. A lot of, a lot of movies that portray veterans, see them as, and portray them as caricatures kind of over the top. If you're from the South, doesn't matter if you're from Nashville or from Atlanta, you're going to have a deep Southern drawl. You're going to sound like a hick. And, you know, there's a bit of military rigidity that actually doesn't exist in the military, you know, a lot of those movies. And so the natural, um, nature is a natural nature. Is that okay? The natural way that the characters carry themselves. You could tell that you and your co-stars did, um, what I would say was a deep study of how the body language, the, the mannerisms. Um, and so I want to hear a little bit more about the conversations that you had that fed what I'm guessing is kind of a conglomeration character. Well, let me first say that, like, because the movie was made entirely outside the Hollywood system, we weren't inundated with notes and boxes that we needed to check off. Right. Right. And I will say the other thing too, is like, look, we went to school on every single movie in the genre, right. Whether it was a war picture or a drama dating back to like the deer hunter or coming home all the way to present day of like Hurt Locker. And, you know, every movie in between Saving Private Ryan and so on. And then of course, all the books. Now, what we came to realize, what I came to realize as a screenwriter is I couldn't understand for this generation's warrior, why I was seeing what I was seeing as you talk about like characters. And I was like, this isn't what I'm seeing. You sit down in front of Navy SEALs. It's not what I'm seeing on television or in the films of how the depiction, if I sit down in front of army grunts or, and when the list goes on, it just seemed, well, why is that? And so to be fair, Cliff, our interpretation was, was telling an authentic story based on our experience immersed in this community. At that point, we went to camera for 12 years. Conversations we've had. So started the journey and we were very idealistic. Matt and I are on that first road trip and, um, you know, we're setting up our cameras. Like we're going to get the story. We're idealistic wanting to get, get to the bottom of things. The moment I turned off those cameras, we break for lunch and Staff Sergeant George Rice, he was the first, he's an army vet, first guy we met with. And he's like, Hey brother. So, so you're the screenwriter? And I said, well, I'm not sure if this is going to be a screenplay, but it might. I don't know. I'm just, you know, journaling. And he's like, well, let me tell you a story. And again, cameras are off. And he opened up to me about that military operation that my character describes in the film that happened in that sheep pen. And he put me in touch with the gold star families that were involved in that and the men that served in that unit. And it was all on them. He endorsed us. Like he said, Hey, like this is after spending time together, but it was on them whether or not they wanted to talk to us. And it took a lot of time to build trust. And that was the beginning. And I think that once we sort of proved ourselves that we could be trusted and that we genuinely cared about getting this right, that we weren't going to shoot some ridiculous action movie of like, you know, RPG incoming, you know, this kind of thing that never ever happens and trying to do something truthful and honest to their experience to honor their service and sacrifice. So, you know, I, I volunteered at the VA in Detroit for years. I would go in there and eventually just become a fly on the wall. So you get to see it warts and all right. And I was taken by the things in the system that were broken. I was taken by the things that were inspiring, where you have men and women coming to work every day, not getting rich, doing it, just trying to make a difference in the lives of others. I immersed myself in the, in the gold star family community, which was incredibly, incredibly impactful and emotional. I did honor flight at Austin, Texas, where, as you probably know, you take our World War II and Vietnam veterans to their respective memorials in DC. And I did that for years. And that's where a lot of Bondi Curtis Hall's dialogue came from in the film. You know, he plays a Vietnam veteran. I didn't invent any of that. That was over whiskeys at the hotel lobby bar at 11 o'clock at night. So you go to the wall, you know, the Vietnam wall, and it's very sobering. You do that in the afternoon. And then that night you're back at the hotel lobby bar and those stories are just opening up and, and that all made its way into my screenplay. And so I, again, I have to thank all of those folks that trusted us. I retired from the army in 2018 after serving multiple deployments. When the uniform came off, the mission didn't disappear. It shifted to my family, my kids and protecting our financial future. Navy Federal Credit Union helps members do exactly that with the platinum card. When you transfer your credit card balance within your first 60 days, you get a 0% intro APR for 12 months. Our members could save thousands. Real help for real life. Learn more at NavyFederal.org slash platinum. Navy Federal Credit Union. Our members are the mission. Navy Federal is federally insured by NCUA. After the intro rate expires, variable APRs apply based on credit worthiness. Rates are subject to change. Fees may apply. APR ends March 31st, 2026. All of that made an impact even on our performances. There was never a time that Matt Dallas and I ever were standing in a corner going, what would our characters do now? We literally had to surrender ourselves to the screenplay. I wrote that I spent years refining that was informed by the truth of these folks. And then you just got to trust the process. All those stories live within you over all those years, you know, and they come out in different ways and to be honest with you, like I'd never be able to recreate that performance or any of those performances, it was lightning in a bottle. And it's worth sharing with you that our cast, our main cast, they knew how high the stakes were. Virginia Mattson, she's now talked publicly about it. So I feel comfortable sharing this, but you know, her nephew served in the army and, um, and he took his life a few years ago and it was within the same year of her getting the screenplay for sheepdog. She knew how high the stakes were to play a gold star family member in our movie. Vandy Curtis Hall grew up in the Vietnam era in Detroit. Many of his friends were drafted. Some didn't come home. Some came home with PTS. Some are battling the effects of Agent Orange, the battling cancer right now. You know, Dominic Famosa, who plays Coach O in the movie, he's worked with Adam Driver's foundation. You know, Adam driver's a Marine veteran, but also an actor and been immersed in that, that community and also depicted real life American hero TIG from the, the Michael Bay movie, 13 hours on the Benghazi tragedy. So everybody came to the project knowing the stakes. And then of course my production company, team house studios, we hired and trained 17 military veterans in five gold star family members in front and behind the camera. So when you have that environment, it permeates in everything you do. And I think our cast and our crew could really feel that. Team house. I saw that team house, uh, name of your, is it production company? I'm not sure that Hollywood vernacular here, but when I saw that, I was wondering, okay, is that, uh, intentional? Yeah, that's about right, Tim. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, you know, yeah, that's where, that's where it all goes down. That's right. Yep. Um, that's where we tie people up on their birthday. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, you know, that kind of leads me into the next question here is you heard a bunch of harrowing stories. I'm sure you heard some of the worst, some of the, uh, immense struggles that people are having, um, internally it quietly often, um, unfortunately, and then also out loud and public, but I'm sure you also heard stories about some of the funny things that happen. Right. And some of the camaraderie and just goofy shit that happens along the way. You have kind of a, one thing that kind of stands out that maybe fed, there's not, there's not a whole lot of lightheartedness in your characters. This is true, but is there something that you kept in there? Yeah. Is there something where, you know, there's a part of the character that maybe isn't outward, but that, that shows joy or fun loving, there's a scene in the, in the movie, for instance, where he's wrestling, of course, he's like kind of wrestling with somebody in a bar kind of goofy off. Right. And, and that's, I think that the most goofy the character was, but did you, did you hear a story or, or, or something that sticks out that made you think, oh yeah, these are just kids. Countless, countless. I mean, especially knowing for most that enlist, like they were teenagers, you know, most of the men and women I sat in front of when they first enlisted insure and, and there was the camaraderie and the, and the brotherhood and the sisterhood, you know, especially like where we pick up in one of the flashback scenes between my character and Daryl, where he's waking up in the morning and he's brushing his teeth and my kids got to go out the door to school. And I would just really like their family in, inside out, right. Through and through. Yeah. And I, and I wanted to, to, to really show that. And, and I also wanted to show, you know, you talk about that bar scene where Cocho comes in and he's like, you know, he gives the hollow gesture at the end of the exchange of, you know, well, Hey Cole, thank you for your service. And my character reacts in a certain way because, and that was what I saw from veterans so many times where they felt like it was just such a hollow gesture, but you know, the civilian meaning well, but, um, Oh man, there's just, look, some of the most bad-ass cold-blooded killers have, that I've sat in front of have the wildest sense of humor and it was always, and I can tell you this, even gold star family members I've sat in front of one of which who I've mentioned, spoke at my wedding, she's like a second mother to me and she, you know, some of the most inappropriate humor and I'd look at her like, geez, and she's just like, you know, if you can't find the levity, son, you know, it'll break you, uh, your pain. And I always stuck with me and you could hear her laughter in a room, across the room, in any age, in any environment I ever was in with her. So that's important. And there, you know, in the film, I feel like the lighter moments are earned because as you know, without giving away a spoiler alert, there's, you know, in the third act of the film, there's a big event where my character completely comes out of his shell and the most positive and beautiful way and for, for the good of his best friend's family. And it was to show that no matter how serious you take yourself, no matter what your scar tissue is, that it's family first and you do anything, you do anything for your family, just like you were willing to give your life for your country. Yeah. I liked that scene. You were talking about where, um, your buddy's brushing his teeth and, um, I suppose your wife is, uh, not too happy to see him. I've seen that maybe one too many times. You're here. Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting how many military spouses have come up to me, like, especially on the film festival circuit, you know, or messages that we get on social media. And it's just wild of like, yeah, that was, you know, I remember going through that and yeah. Yeah. But it's, it's a family, you know, that, and, and it's, uh, you know, I mean, I, again, a lot of my research didn't happen, like sitting at a desk saying, now tell me about this, tell me about that. It was being immersed in it. It was being in people's living rooms, in their homes, uh, and eventually, like I said, becoming a fly on the wall where sometimes they forget you're even there and you get to see the whole family dynamic, you know, right. And that became really interesting for me is that I was able to inform the characters based on that. So the film was released and obviously has won some critical acclaim. What has the response been from military and veteran community that, that, you know, but maybe, maybe that you don't know, um, number one, like give me a couple of positives and I know there's gotta be a couple of haters out there. Some, sometimes it's fun to like, look at what the haters are saying and just kind of laugh. Well, the haters are typically like we we've listened, we've been really lucky. And I'm going to touch wood now. Cause I don't want a bunch of people writing a bunch of hate for the sake of I'll show him now, anyone that's like, look, there's, there's been next to none. And I take that. I've said to my wife, to people around me, I've been in show business for 27 years since I was like a teenager. I've been in some incredible projects that I'm credibly honored and I've been in some not so great stuff. I've never so consistently had such a profound and passionate response to anything I've done quite like sheepdog. Look, I spent a year basically in the editing room. You don't know what you have until you put it out there, right? You might think you have a good film or you might think you don't have a great film until you put it in front of an audience, you know, and I had tested it in test groups to try to cut down like for pacing and you're hoping to get bad feedback because if you only get praised, you're like, how do I find 15 minutes to cut out of this movie? But through that process, I was able to tighten the film up. And then I took that two hour version of the film and I took it on the film festival circuit. That's where we learned what we had when you, you know, we premiered, we world premiered in Boston, 400 people at the IMAX theater, half of them veterans, first responders, military folk. Um, and it was profound. I mean, it was just so emotional having Vietnam veterans stand up in a full auditorium and tears saying you guys fricking nailed it or, you know, we, we screened at the twin cities film festival in Minneapolis and invited some of the veterans that we had met with, you know, 14 years prior that had influenced some of the screenplay and seeing it for the first time and tears saying, brother, I wish I had this movie to show my family 10 years ago when I got out so they could understand why I am the way I am, but why they are the way they are. I wish I had my, this film to show my ex-wife. Cliff to see, to see the light return into a gold star family member's eyes after a screening is amazing because they feel represented on the screen. So it's profound. Let's just talk about it. I get like probably on average throughout the week, hundreds of messages of folks reaching out across the country. When you get a veteran reaching out from upstate Michigan, who writes to me on the opening weekend, when it came out in theaters in January, Hey man, I don't know if you'll ever see this message, but I want to let you know that I went down to the local hardware store and spent my last $12 on a piece of rope and I went to the local park and I was going to end it all there. And I got a phone call from one of my friends and I wasn't too happy. I got the phone call cause it was stopping me from interrupting me from what I was going to do. So I go over to my friend's house who also served and he tells me about your film. He tells me I need to go see it. And I go and see it that night at the local theater and it saved my life. And he gave me all the reasons and all the things that really touched him in the film. Like that's, that's the stuff, man. Do you, you know, that's bigger than all of us. And that was, you know, and I have stories like that from gold star family members or, or family members, you know, a sister who's, who reached out, who's, whose brother was killed in Iraq. And, um, and that's a long path to healing. It's a long path for a family. And so to have a film for them that touches on those emotions and the things that they feel, and then to get a message saying, this is just, it was an incredible experience for us. Thank you for making it last anecdotal share, a military spouse reached out a week ago and she said, we watched your film on Amazon prime. And my husband and I sat in silence for 15 minutes after the credits came up. We didn't say a word. And he got up off the couch and went out into the garage and I could hear him crying. And she said, it sounded like a cry he had hung on to for the last 10 years since his last deployment. So I'd like to think it was a good cry. She's like, we had breakfast this morning and it was the first time that he opened up to me and just started talking to me about some of his service and his experience. Brother, it's so humbling and all as the filmmaker, you just want to continue to be worthy of that. Right. Right. Yeah. And yes, sir. And, um, you know, we, we have to wrap this up and, uh, get to dad duty like we all do. Right. But, uh, you know, I'm sure that holding onto this project, it taking as long as it did felt like carrying a rucksack. What was it like? You probably thought once you took off the rucksack that you were going to feel light, but now you need to pick up a new one. I didn't know the weight I was carrying until we wrapped on the movie and the final scene of the film, which I don't want to give away, but you've now seen it. So, you know, the castaway inspiration I'll say from the Tom Hanks movie castaway. So I'm talking about where he goes with his truck. That was the last scene that we shot of the film. And you're normally a film was shot completely out of chronological order, but that was the last scene in the movie. Last thing we shot. I get in my character's red pickup truck with Matt. We start driving down this rural road and I just come undone. I'm just crying like a little, a little boy inside of me. Just, you know, I don't know why. And I'm looking at Matt and he's crying and we just drive. And I was just like this catharsis of like doing it. I pack everything up. We, you know, this, cause we shot in Western mass. I go back home to Los Angeles where I was living at the time and I walked into my home. I hadn't been back in like eight months with my wife and I felt like I was walking into somebody else's home. I felt like I was trespassing because the guy that I was for so many years, I've lived in that house 10 plus years all throughout doing the project was no longer the guy who walked into that house. And that weight I didn't realize I was carrying had lifted. And it just becomes a different thing in the journey, man, because you're now when you go into screenings, especially in group settings, you know, you're surrounded by folks that are sharing their grief stories or the trauma stories or something that's much lighter and a story from their service or even those that didn't serve. And then it becomes a whole different thing of like, I always say it's like attending a wedding and a funeral at the same time. Right. Because emotions are high and you're in it. You are fully in it. And if a film like Sheepdog can do that, brother, it is the highest blessing that that we get to be a part of this. And God knows that all the people that trusted us with their stories are honored and the community for for what they give us every day. Yeah. Well said. And Steven, congratulations on making such a powerful film. The obviously the praise is received. It's well deserved. And, you know, we just we should remind people that you're not alone out there. You have friends, you have resources. And so you have you have movies to watch like this one to help inspire you to make a change in your life. Far too often, people don't. And I've I've had friends who went down that road, unfortunately. And then I've had friends who climbed out of a hole. Yeah. But one thing that you said actually really resonated real quick is that walking into your house after your eight months, it's no different than walking in from a deployment. You are a different person when you're overseas. And when that door opens, you're a stranger in the house. Everybody has to get reacquainted. Everybody has to feel your temperature. Yeah. And it's not a great feeling. It's great to be home, but it's also it's like, OK, well, adjustment time. Well, you did 20 years in right as a master sergeant. So, you know, you know all too well. How many times did you get ripped on by your boys for being like Johnny Depp? Oh, no, not every day. No, you did. Every day, every day. Now it's Pedro Pascual in some. Oh, there you go. Somebody named Austin. I don't know. Hockey player. I don't know who he is. Apparently, he's a good hockey player. Anyways, that is funny, though. Yeah. So thanks again. And I just want to say Sheepdog reminds us that service leaves marks, but also leaves strength. And sometimes the bravest thing we can do is tell the truth about what comes after. So thanks for being here. Thank you for telling the story. I think I think your movie here is going to find find an audience that it's going to find the audience it needs to find. And so we appreciate you. Yeah, Cliff, thank you. For anyone that's listening and watching Sheepdog, the movie dot com, it has all the links that you can go to to see our film. Also, if anyone wants to interact with us on social media, we're very interactive. We're here for you. And we appreciate you all very much. Thanks, Stephen. Appreciate you. And if this episode resonated with you, make sure you share it with somebody who needs to hear it and subscribe to our podcast. And until next time, we'll be looking out for each other.