Return to Base: Inside the Fight for Veteran Policy and Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy for PTSD with Zachary Federico

Hey, welcome back to Return to Base, where we talk with leaders shaping the military and veteran space. I'm your host, Cliff VanRickley. And right now, there's a major shift happening in how the U.S. approaches veteran mental health. Donald Trump actually recently signed an executive order to fast-track research and access to psychedelic-assisted therapies for conditions like PTSD, something that's long overdue if you ask me. So we're talking about treatments that until recently were heavily restricted and are now being pushed forward as potential lifelines for veterans struggling with treatment-resistant conditions. And while that's happening at the federal level, there's another layer to the story with state-level legislation policy frameworks and the people helping shape what comes next. And that's where today's great guest comes in. Zach Federico is the director of the Veterans and Military Affairs Task Force at the American Legislative Exchange Council, working with lawmakers across the country to develop policies that directly impact service members, veterans, and military families. He's been at the center of conversations around emerging treatments like psilocybin-assisted therapy, helping states build frameworks that balance access, safety, and oversight. And he's still serving as a musician with the 29th Infantry Division Band at the Virginia Army National Guard. Zach, welcome to Return to Base. It's great to have you here. Yeah, thanks for having me, Cliff. Yeah. So, you know, as always, we like to kind of settle in with kind of what led you to this place. What's your story? So, you know, what pulled you toward military service and how did that eventually lead you into the policy space? And first of all, if you're in the band, what instrument do you play? Is it like electric guitar, oboe? I wish it was something that cool. Have you ever heard of the euphonium? No. What is it shaped like? Small tuba. Small tuba. Okay, cool. Some people call it a baritone tuba. The proper name is euphonium. And then I play trombone and drum set as well, but primarily euphonium. Yeah. Did you pick that up when you were a kid or? I started on trumpet, like most good middle school musicians. And then my school needed more low brass players. And so I transitioned to that and I ended up just being much better at it. So that's where I ended up. I never got past the kazoo, I don't think. So what is the song that everybody learns when they're in school? Hot Cross Buns. Yeah, Hot Cross Buns. Something like that. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah. Did you always play music? Did you always want to be in the military? Is that something that was part of your family or is it just an opportunity that came about? Yeah, I honestly never expected to be in the military. So back when I was a freshman in college, I knew that I loved playing music, but I was really passionate about government policy. So I decided to major in government and then I took advantage of all the ensembles the school music had to offer. So I was in the Marching Man, the Wind Symphony. I took private lessons from the professors. And as I was sitting in practice rooms for like one or two hours every day, I just kind of knew in the back of my head that it was a little bit meaningless because I wasn't going to have these opportunities once I got out of college. And then one day, the commander of my unit came in on a recruiting trip and told me about the opportunity to serve my country playing music. And the more I thought about it, the more I knew it was something I had to do. So I guess to answer your question, that's kind of the way I got into the military was just kind of like starting as a musician and seeing it as a way to serve. Yeah. So you said the commander of your unit came in. So were you already in the, were you in like ROTC or something like that? No, I wasn't involved in anything at that point. I was just a band kid trying to get by. Band kid in college at this point. Wow. Okay. So somebody walked in and said, Hey, you know what? The military actually needs musicians. That's interesting. Exactly. After retiring from the army, the toughest moments weren't overseas. They were at the kitchen table talking bills and budgets. Navy Federal Credit Union is helping members dominate debt with the platinum card. Transfer your balance within your first 60 days and get a 0% intro APR for 12 months. Our members could save thousands over the promo period. Learn more at NavyFederal.org slash platinum. Navy Federal Credit Union. Our members are the mission. Navy Federal is federally insured by NCUA. Awesome. Yeah. And so how does that look like with, so you have your, your day job here at, at ALEC and I mean, I keep going back to this cause I'm fascinated by how does the, how does it work with the, with the guard and, and the band, you know, is it the same as any other thing where, you know, one week in a month you go and you serve with the band or do you guys just practice or are you guys, are you, I assume you're in DC or? So I'm in the Virginia National Guard band. Okay. And yeah, to answer your question, it's the best side gig I could ever ask for. I love playing music and now I get to do that in uniform, in parades, concerts, military ceremonies, all across the Commonwealth of Virginia. Um, and it's just been very fulfilling to be in that public facing role to where I get to be the visual reminder to people in Virginia that there are people fighting for their freedoms overseas. And so probably the coolest experience we had was it was a year ago. Um, my unit sent a group of 10 of us and I got selected for it over to Normandy for a deployment for the Indian anniversary of D-Day. And so we got to play on Omaha beach, which was the beach that the 29th infantry division was there on D-Day. And then we played in every town of the 29th division liberated. It was cool to be the representative of the 29th division back home, but also be able to do that overseas as well. That is pretty cool. I like that. Going back to, uh, to Alec, right? Let's, uh, let's transition a little bit and tell me a little bit more about what does this stand for? What, what is its mission? Um, and then we'll, we'll go into kind of what you're doing there. Well, now is probably a great time to just do the quick legal disclaimer that opinions are my own and do not reflect the department of war, the United States army of the Virginia national guard, but game past that Alec stands for the American legislative exchange council. And we are the nation's largest voluntary membership organization of state legislators and nonprofit leaders or private sector leaders. Um, and what we do is we create these round table discussions where legislators, business leaders, and policy experts can collaborate to create best practices that we call our model policies. So basically if there's an idea that happens in Virginia, say state legislators develop a solution to this problem, we don't want that idea to stay in Virginia. We want those legislators to be able to connect with legislators from across the country. And then they might present the idea and maybe a legislator in Ohio says, Hey, we have a similar problem. Maybe this could be a good solution for us. And so we create those forums for conversation and then we help develop those into model policies that state legislators can take and introduce into their states. And we do this across our 11 different task forces, including the veterans and military affairs task force, which is one that I lead. And so I tell people that role has kind of five parts. I recruit state legislators from all 50 states. I recruit veterans organizations, businesses, private sector organizations who are interested in joining the conversation. I do policy tracking across all 50 states. I do research, writing analysis, being a policy resource for the state legislators, which often involves legislative testimony when the bills are introduced. And lastly, I work on planning and courting our task force meetings and other miscellaneous events through the year. So it's a pretty broad job description, but it's one that I really enjoy. That's awesome. So your time is spent in the state houses primarily, in addition to where you work. But I imagine you're in the halls of the state houses. Do you get to travel around to different capitals or do you kind of stick in the Commonwealth of Virginia? Yeah, we travel all across the country. We have two conferences every year. We have one the summer, one the winter, and they rotate cities. And so that's two times a year I definitely travel. But then, you know, I was testifying in Maryland not long ago. I testified in Iowa not long ago. And we're just all over the place trying to make an impact. Awesome. So you're working in a space a lot of people don't fully understand policy and legislation. So what does your role actually look like at ALEC? And does your real world military experience affect how you approach policy? Yeah, I would say the military, when you go through basic training, their goal is to instill these certain values in you. Part of that was I remember like as we were rappelling down the side of a wall, they told us afterwards like this was to teach you confidence that if you follow the steps you're supposed to follow, you will succeed and believing you can do something. And those are just kind of lessons that have applied in all areas of my life. But especially in the policy space, it seems to be really helpful. Also, the military structure of, you know, I spend years and years calling people like Sergeant Smith. And so it's pretty easy to remember to call him Representative Smith or Senator Smith and not just call them John. So there's definitely some overlap there. Yeah, that's interesting. Do you find any, I don't know, frustration and you know, the military is you have a decision, you have a task and you just go execute it. There's not a whole lot of banter. There's not a whole lot of back and forth. It is just just, you know, the orders have been made and you execute. Is there a level of, you know, frustration or at least you have to kind of check yourself like, oh, I'm in the policy space now where these conversations can be have a really long tail. Yeah, it's definitely two different skill sets. And so I enjoy being able to do both because not everyone's good at following orders. Some people, they, you know, I think I probably started off this way where I had a tendency to question things and ask too many questions and not just do what I was told. And so learning that was very important in the military. But then also learning the nuances of, you know, there's not always just one way to do something. And sometimes there is a lot of people you need to talk to and convince a lot of different people that this is a good policy before it can move. And so, yeah, definitely two different ways to think about it. Right. Do you have any were you surprised at all? Like, what are your biggest surprises of how legislation actually gets made? Yeah, speaking specifically to the state level, one of the things that surprised me the most is just how how different state legislators are than people think, because a lot of times we think about someone that takes the time to run for office. You think of someone like the president or members of Congress who have dedicated their life to this is going to be their being in office is going to be their life. And of course, there's all sorts of stereotypes that come with that. Yeah. State legislators are generally part time. So these are people like you and me that just decide that this was a way they could serve their community. And so they're going to take two, three, four months out of their their life every year, regardless, depending on the state, of course, because they're all different. And then they're going to go serve in their state legislature and then they're going to go out and go back to being a farmer, being a business leader, being a lawyer or just going back to normal life. And so I think that's been that's been the part that's been most surprising to me is just how easy it is to talk with these people and how eager they are to help their constituents. Yeah, that's interesting. And from what I understand, the compensation isn't isn't that great either. So these are these are true servants in many cases. The best example is New Hampshire, where they're paid one hundred dollars a year. Wow. Well, it's a small state. Yeah. Yeah. So moving on to what Alec is working on currently. So with what's going on right now, because this conversation is around mental health treatments involving which are evolving quickly, you've testified on legislation around psilocybin assisted therapy. And Alec has developed model policies around the space. So for someone hearing about this for the first time, what does this legislation actually do and why is it gaining traction? Yeah, so I'll start with the why behind like the reasons behind the legislation, and they can dive into the two different model policies that our task force has developed. So most service members, they raise their right hand, they go through training, they go and do everything their country asks for them, and then they come back, they retire and they successfully reintegrate into society. Unfortunately, that's not everyone's story. Some veterans, they come back and they take their war home with them. They develop issues like post-traumatic stress disorder, traumatic brain injury, things like substance use disorder, major depressive disorder. And our current treatments just aren't effective for everyone. For example, for PTSD, the Department of Veterans Affairs recommends trauma focused therapy as a first line treatment. However, like 27% of veterans will drop out of that treatment before completing it. And even among the veterans that complete it, about 50% still are clinically diagnosed with PTSD. So then you move on to the second line treatment, which is medications like antidepressants and SSRIs. And these only cause remission in about 20 to 30% of patients and they often cause adverse side effects. And then many veterans are on them for the rest of their lives. The lack of really good treatments for many veterans has led them to seek alternatives elsewhere. And one of those alternatives that I've shown a lot of promise is psychedelic assisted therapy using substances like psilocybin. And currently these substances are banned in the United States under the Controlled Substances Act from the 1970s. And so the veterans have traveled overseas, sometimes with nonprofits, sometimes on their own, sometimes in these retreat settings to get this treatment with these substances. And they've come back and told their stories. And in many cases, they've come back and said, no traditional treatment has helped me, but this cured me from PTSD. And they'll then use their voice to advocate for it to be available here in the United States. They'll say, we fought for our country overseas. Why do we now have to go back overseas to get the treatments that can treat our service relay conditions? And so state legislators have listened to that. The federal government has listened to that. It seems to be a lot of momentum on it right now. Our task force has developed two different model policies on this. We have one, which is the Therapeutic Psilocybin Act. This is one that's actually a regulated access program. So it allows, if it's passed, it allows veterans in that state to access psilocybin assisted therapy within the states with strict guardrails and everything to ensure safety. The second one is on a different substance called Ibogaine. And the reason we have two different ones is because psilocybin is a substance that has a very long track record of research spanning back decades. We know that when it's done in medical settings, that is incredibly safe. Ibogaine, on the other hand, is a little bit newer and research on it is just starting, but the research has been a lot more encouraging. There was a Stanford study that came out a couple of years ago that showed an 88% reduction, sorry, 88% of combat veterans with PTSD that took Ibogaine had complete remission from their PTSD after just one session. And so this has led to our second model policy, which is the Veterans Mental Health Innovations Act, which allocates research money to clinical trials for Ibogaine assisted therapy. And the reason you might be wondering why the state has to get involved in all this, because generally all this innovation comes from the private sector. But unfortunately, Ibogaine is a naturally occurring substance and clinical trials are expensive and there is no profit motive for companies to do clinical trials on something they cannot patent. And so that's where states have stepped up to do this model policy that says we're going to allocate X dollars for clinical trials that's going to be matched by private funds to do these clinical trials, then collaborate and bring all this data together and present it to the FDA to try to get FDA approval for the medication. What is psilocybin and what is Ibogaine? It's a great question. Psilocybin is the hallucinogenic ingredient in mushrooms. So the street name I think is Magic Mushrooms. Never heard of it. Yeah, never heard of it. Ibogaine is from the, I want to say Ibogoa plant, which is in West Africa. And it's another psychedelic compound that comes from the roots, the bark on the root of those plants. Okay, got it. Nothing to do with like licking frogs or anything like that. No, not those. Okay, cool. Yeah. Is that a different thing that we're working on? We're not working on that one. Okay. There's a whole cornucopia of different substances out there. And so the two that our task forces chose to focus on is the one with the best safety profile and then the one with the most encouraging early results. I retired from the Army in 2018 after serving multiple deployments. When the uniform came off, the mission didn't disappear. It shifted to my family, my kids and protecting our financial future. Navy Federal Credit Union helps members do exactly that with the platinum card. When you transfer your credit card balance within your first 60 days, you get a 0% intro APR for 12 months. Our members could save thousands. Real help for real life. Learn more at NavyFederal.org slash platinum. Navy Federal Credit Union. Our members are the mission. Navy Federal is federally insured by NCUA. After the intro rate expires, variable APRs apply based on credit worthiness. Rates are subject to change. Fees may apply. APR ends March 31st, 2026. Right. Okay. So moving on, states are working to do research and development and your organization's efforts can help states allocate funds, which are matched by private sector. Is that right? Yes. And then the states will attempt to enact laws to open access at the state level to these treatments. Is that correct? So that depends on what the state wants to do. So there are some, there are many states like Texas was the one that started all this along with Arizona last year that said, we're not ready to provide access to this yet. So we're just going to do a bunch of research money. And then there have been other states like Utah and Colorado and Oregon, which has said, actually, we're going to provide access to this because we think it's that important. And so different states have different cultures. They have different tolerances. And so they have those two options to go with. Now that I'm sure you have a plethora of knowledge of this, but the recent Oval Office meeting with President Trump, I think Joe Rogan was there. He's been a big advocate for it. How does this play? Is it in concert? Is it in contention or is, is all efforts moving towards that direction? Good. And how, how will the federal, I think it was an executive order and I'm not, I didn't read too much on it, but how does, how does that affect the efforts going on within states? Yeah, this executive order really radically changed the relationship from, or the perspective of the federal government on these substances. So up until this point, the federal government has been pretty apathetic towards these emerging treatments, just because the amount of red tape it takes to get approval for these treatments in the United States is massive. And so that's why the states have started to lead on it. And what this executive order does is it cuts down a lot of those barriers. It says that we're going to kind of direct these federal agencies to support state efforts. We're going to allow treatment under the right to try act in the United States, which I'll be, I'm curious to see how that actually plays out over the next weeks, months and years. But probably the biggest part of it is it says that for states that have started researching this, we're going to match their funds and it says in at least $50 million. So it doesn't really give an upper limit, but it says we're going to allocate at least $50 million of existing funds to support these research efforts in the states. So it's a, it's a pretty radical shift and it shows states that now, instead of them doing it on their own or in concert with other states, they now have a partner in the federal government in these research efforts. So what I did not do is allow me to go down to the corner and get some magic mushrooms. Is that what you're saying? That's correct. And to be clear, our model policy doesn't do that either. Yeah. Our model policy has very clear guardrails in place to make sure that we give it to the people that need it. And then we make sure that it's kept out of the, we make sure it's given only to the people that need it. I'll say it that way. Right. Now this is obviously close to your heart as a, as a veteran offered to veterans or at least focused on veterans. I guess it's not just focused on veterans. Everybody has trauma, right? I imagine police officers, fire, firemen, EMTs, et cetera, experience the same amount or similar trauma. But is the momentum from veterans of our global war on terrorism, is that what is driving the push or is that just a kind of a happy, happy accident of a follow along? Yeah, I think it would. I think that it's pretty safe to say that it's been the veterans that have made the change here. There is so much research out showing that Americans listen to veterans. They respect their service. They want to show appreciation of veterans and that when veterans speak on a topic, people listen. And so I think we've seen veterans be so active in state houses and Congress and just really pushing for this, especially the ones that came back from getting the treatment. And it's really made a huge difference in the country. Can you give some specific examples? Maybe you'll have to use their names or if you want to use their names, if they're comfortable with it. Do you have any secondhand stories of folks who have used it and the benefits that they've explored? I know a few people who have benefited from psychedelics and they did it so they could deal with military trauma, obviously. But do you have any real world examples that you could share? I don't know if I have any that I, they're not my stories to tell. I'll say it that way. Yeah. But anytime you see these bills up, most of the time when I'm testifying, there's someone testifying with me that has a story to tell. Excellent. Yeah. So we're seeing real momentum. What are the roadblocks still in place before there's there's real movement on this and real access to these treatments? So the United States has really clear guardrails in place to protect the American people from, let's say, people developing drugs too quickly and not having enough safety in place. And so we have very, we have pretty strict requirements that you have to meet for treatment to be approved for use in the United States. And getting clinical trials done is expensive. They take a lot of time. You have to measure not just how did it help the person in the moment, but how did it affect them in the years afterwards? And so these things don't happen overnight. But the efforts that we've seen have probably taken it from this being a decades long battle to being maybe a years long battle to get these things approved. Wow. Do you think that the fact that so many states have, for instance, decriminalized or flat out legalized marijuana without federal government doing the same thing has kind of paved the way for this type of movement? In a weird way, it has. One of the funniest things was I was talking to some Utah legislators because somehow Utah was one of the first states that passed a regulated access program for psilocybin assisted therapy. And they were talking about when they were moving the bill through the state house that there was concerns coming up about, okay, well, what happens if the federal government cracks down on us? Because this is still federally illegal. And what convinced the legislators to move forward with the bill anyways was someone made the argument that, well, marijuana is also still federally illegal and the federal government hasn't cracked down on that. So how could they justify cracking down on an emerging treatment for veterans with service related conditions and not cracking down on recreational marijuana use? I think it kind of was the first domino to fall. Yeah. And frankly, as a veteran, retired Army myself, I know several people, won't name their names, but who have found relief using medicinal or even recreational marijuana in the states where it's legal. And that kind of opens a lot of people's eyes. I know when I was in the service myself and quite a few of my peers were like, no, man, we're not like marijuana is for these type of people, right? Not for us. But I've come to find out that a lot of people are able to deal with their pain, their internal and actual physical pain quite well. We're used to being shoved the 800 milligram ibuprofen in our mouth and telling us to soldier on. Right. Yeah, exactly. And God knows what that's done to my liver. Yeah. So that's great news that we are making strides there. I think that with marijuana, there's something to do with banking and cash involved. I think they have to have basically cash business. And so I don't suspect that this will turn into a recreational or a dispensary type access. Right. This is under direct supervision of somebody. Correct. Yeah. So our model policy specifically is it can only be done in clinical settings. So it doesn't allow any sort of like, here's your prescription, psilocybin, go take it home and then report back. Right. It is we're going to give it to you in the clinical setting under supervision to make sure that on the rare chance that something goes wrong, you have help there to give you treatment. And what would be the qualifications of the person who delivers this treatment? Is this a physician or a psychologist? I think that I can be honest and say, I don't really know that part. I know that in the states I've done it, it has been determined by the state's department of health and who that person is. And so I think somebody took an online course. I believe it has to be a licensed clinical psychologist. But yeah, maybe don't quote me on that. All right. Great. So, you know, one thing we like to do here on Return to Base is to make things practical. Right. The kind of mission of this podcast and our efforts have been to tell stories and to deliver things that can provide relief or at least knowledge to people. I myself as a veteran, how can I or some of my peers get involved in the policy level to help move this forward? Yeah. One of my favorite parts about working in policy is that most everything that is happening is transparent. You know who your elected officials are or you can find out. You can read every bill that's introduced either on your state legislator's website, state legislature's website, or on congress.gov. You can visit your legislator's office. You can attend committee hearings, et cetera, et cetera. And just like state legislators listen to veterans voices on emerging PTSD therapy treatments, they want to listen to your voice on other issues as well. I would encourage veterans to just be active and use your voice to inform these discussions. Your state legislator might have no idea what it's like to be in uniform. And maybe there's a bill that you know would have helped you when you were in uniform. And they want to know that so that when they have to go vote for that bill, they can make the informed decision. And so you can even look at our policy solutions at ALEC.org. And if you like them, encourage your representatives to introduce them in your state. So there's a lot of ways you can get involved. But I would just say, yeah, don't underestimate how powerful your voice can be, especially as a veteran. Right. Two questions. Number one, who are some of the biggest backers of this? At least not necessarily like legislatures or states, but what are some of the maybe the nonprofits that are really at the forefront, the tip of the spear with getting these policies enacted? Yeah, kind of the two organizations I work with the most, the first is Americans for Ibogaine. And that was started by former Texas Governor Rick Perry and Brian Hubbard, who's the current CEO. And so if you look, if you listen to the guy giving the speech at the executive order signing ceremony, that was Brian Hubbard next to Joe Rogan. And then the second one is the Reason Foundation, which is a libertarian think tank that we work with a lot. So most of the time you see me testifying in the states, you'll see the two of them alongside me. And we work pretty closely together on this issue. Follow up question. There's got to be somebody who's a detractor. Who are the biggest, the ones who are standing in the way and what, what, what is their reason? There has to be a, there has to be a yin and a yang, right? And this issue doesn't seem to be any major pushback. It's just kind of the, the biggest challenge is education is that, you know, when you use the term Ibogaine, that's something that most state legislators have never heard of before. And so, and then there's, of course, you know, especially legislators that lived through the 1970s, there's kind of this anti-drug bias that can really impact the way these bills can move. And so I think the biggest, the biggest fight is just getting people informed and educating people on the topics. And then I found that once people understand the reasons why and then see the emerging studies that they tend to vote for it. Interesting. Great. Cool. So we're going to do a quick lightning round to kind of wrap things up and I'll just throw out some questions and you can answer them quickly to the best of your ability. What is one issue that affecting veterans people still don't understand? I think we don't fully appreciate how difficult transition out of the military can be. Amen. The same thing. I used to joke with people that there's like a quarter life crisis when you graduate either high school or college because you knew, like, I graduate seventh grade, I go to eighth grade and then on and on. And then you finish your senior year and you're like, what's next? And the military is similar where you spend, you know, sometimes two years, sometimes 20 years in this career that's very structured, people telling you what to do. I'm having a very structured life. And then when that ends, you have to redefine yourself. And so I think that's a challenge that we don't give enough credit to. Yeah. No, thank you. What is a habit that keeps you grounded? So you must be in a very stressful, high pressure type of position. What's something that is able to keep you grounded? I have a daily like prayer, Bible reading routine that keeps me grounded. I also have a great group of guys and friends around me that I can call to when I need help. And yeah, God has really blessed me with the community I have. Yeah, that's, that's great to hear. Same. What's the best part about serving in the guard and what is, if you weren't playing the instrument that you do play now, what would you like to play? I think the best part about serving in the guard is just getting to interact with people from all different walks of life. All kind of combined towards a common goal. And I think if I had to choose an instrument I don't currently play, it would probably be trumpet. That's what I started with. I love trumpet. Just wasn't, wasn't what I was talented at. You ever play in like a different type of band, like a jazz band or a rock and roll band? So I do, I typically do euphonium for concert band, trombone for jazz band and drum set for rock band. Okay, nice. So you're working at the intersection of service and policy and, and, you know, thank you for your service. If you could leave veterans with one piece of advice about continuing just to serve beyond the uniform, what would it be? Yeah, I think kind of going back to what I was talking about earlier about the impact that veterans have had in the policy space already is don't underestimate how important your voice is. There's been a lot of research on this and actually a recent Gallup poll that came out that just talks about how the vast majority of Americans, when they hear a veteran talk, they listen because they want to respect that service. They understand that you've sacrificed for the country and it's a, it's a unique ability to make a difference. Stay informed, run for office if that's something you're interested in. And you can always self-serving as of me to say, always keep track of what organizations like ALEC are doing and see how you can, you can help out. Awesome, man. So yeah, Zach, this has been a real great conversation. I appreciate, you know, I've learned a lot about, I didn't know that, for instance, that different state legislators, legislators actually work together. That's news to me, but from service and uniform to shaping policy across, across the country, I appreciate what you're doing and you're keeping up the good fight for, quite frankly, folks like me who, you know, GWAT veteran. There's, there's a lot of us out there who we thought were, were grounded and who we thought were strong and had it all together and, and it turned out that they were suffering. So any, anytime I hear about folks who are working toward the goal of easing those people's pain, you know, it's, it's one thing when you're 18 years old to be on the ground kicking in somebody's door. Believe me, you love it. It gets your blood moving. But, but yeah, we do see, and we do feel things later on in life that, that a lot of people don't understand. And so I appreciate the efforts that you are doing and the folks that you're working with are doing to move this legislation forward. I appreciate you. Thank you very much. Thanks so much for having me Cliff. It's great to meet you. Yeah. Great to meet you too. And to our listeners, if you enjoyed this episode of Return to Base, make sure to subscribe and share it with somebody navigating their next chapter. Until next time, we'll be out there looking out for each other. Transcribed by https://otter.ai